Curse

ultimastrike · Nov 21, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

I took the same approach as above. Read the OP, noted the mis-spellings, and skipped the flamewar.

There are very few Mesmers in PvE because new players jump into the game, hit the wall where you either learn to be effective or gtfo, and then notice the easier classes pwning face with 12341234 cookie cutter builds. It's a simple fact that classes like Mesmer, Assassin and Paragon are difficult to play effectively (although in this Mesmer's opinion, such classes are far more rewarding.).

Yes 99% of Mesmers can't stand the heat, but it seems as though those of us who survive walk around the end-game with Obsidian armor, Torment weapons, maxxed Halls of Monuments and high rank Maxxed Title Track.

Mordakai · Nov 21, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultimastrike

Yes 99% of Mesmers can't stand the heat, but it seems as though those of us who survive walk around the end-game with Obsidian armor, Torment weapons, maxxed Halls of Monuments and high rank Maxxed Title Track.

Surely you're not insinuating only mesmers can do this?

No one is arguing that Mesmers can't be good. The discussion is why they seem to be worse than any other profession in PvE.

Antheus · Nov 21, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

but it seems as though those of us who survive walk around the end-game with Obsidian armor, Torment weapons, maxxed Halls of Monuments and high rank Maxxed Title Track.

The ability to grind is unrelated to profession.

Or is the FoW and maxed titles supposed to indicate skill?

yazhgar · Nov 21, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I got mesmer and paragon, both are my favorites in PvE and PvP.

The amount of direct damage mesmers can do in PvE is worse than other classes, but sure Echo, MoR and others are fun.

and of course, signet of illusions.. I just wonder how people cant find mesmers fun, now only if I could get larger skill bar.
Although Ive never tried to get Mesmer or Paragon to High End content, just going there on Monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The ability to grind is unrelated to profession.

Or is the FoW and maxed titles supposed to indicate skill?

Obviously they indicate the size of ePenis... atleast more of that than skill.

Halmyr · Nov 21, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Surely you're not insinuating only mesmers can do this?

No one is arguing that Mesmers can't be good. The discussion is why they seem to be worse than any other profession in PvE.

I think what he ment there was, out of the many who create a mesmer, very few stick with it, and even less make it to end game, but those mesmer who make it to the end are always In obsidian armor, Torment weapon, max title ect.....

Mesmer are awsome, I love playing then in PvP ( HA/RA and AB) to anoy people in a good way. But in PvE I find them...how can I say this....in most case, by the time the mesmer gets going in battle, its already all over before he could get real busy. But I have seen a few suprising and fun mesmer builts with mesmer only skill, so I don't deny there effectivness.

Guess its all a matter of preference

FalconDance · Nov 21, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

That's great, but the question was why are there so few Mesmers. The reason is because quite a lot of people play this game for that very point. Telling everyone how that doesn't matter to you is one thing, but that doesn't change the reasoning of others, and it doesn't do anything for the discussion.

Unless I misunderstand what the entire purpose of a forum is, I am entitled to state how I feel regarding any matter just as much as you are, Avarre. I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, merely expressing how I view the topic. And since I, too, am a GW player, my opinions/statements/experiences count as much as yours or anyone else's in ANY discussion on topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Did you just type this as an attempt to troll? Other classes need to have well-designed skillsets and have proper team co-ordination just as much as a Mesmer in PvE. It would seem you just tried to make a link between 'playing a Mesmer' and 'knowing your profession', which really doesn't make any sense at all. I'd also explore the amusement of you taking the common, unsupported stand while calling others 'stereotyping individuals who can't be bothered to engage brain' but I'm not in the mood to edit down a flame war.

As you pointed out to another person, do not take one statement/set of statements out of context to make an assumption of intent. Put that paragraph back into its context and it is NOT a troll attempt. I targetted no one except the elitist - and they do appear in GW - who believes only his or her preferred profession is THE best/most effective/most powerful ever the way he or she plays it.

Apparently you did not understand what I was writing, so I shall try to paraphrase it a bit clearer.

If you like to play GW but are not necessarilly demanding to be THE all-powerful, in the spotlight hero who can solo any map, perhaps you should not play a mesmer. Mesmers, IN MY OPINION, are best as TEAM SUPPORT characters, not solo juggernauts, even though there are certainly areas and builds I'm sure in which they can be just that.

If the jibes of others who question your abilities as a mesmer (unless justified, of course) upset you to no end, then perhaps you should not party up as a mesmer. There ARE players who will see a mesmer and start right in on the "n00b" track of harrassment for no apparent reason. There are also others who will have a mesmer in their team who will harrass you because you don't have immediately visible damage stats or animations (butterflies are cool, purple swirlies, too, but tanks are usually too busy to notice the signature mesmer twirl-cast).

As to knowing the profession. ANY profession should be learned to the best of your ability if that is what you wish to portray ingame. A warrior, for instance, is more than a meatshield with a sharp-pointy. Sure, you could slash your way all the way to Hell, but knowing and using the accompanying skills intelligently sure makes the trip more enjoyable. A necro is more than just a minion master. They can Curse or use Blood very effectively without ever summoning anything.

Many people do not play mesmers IN MY OPINION because they cannot be bothered to persevere in learning how to do so. Perhaps they read threads like this or others here in which there are mini-flames thrown about how gods-awful mesmers are compared to fire eles or warriors or whatever. Perhaps they can't figure out how to synergize their skillbar to be effective for different areas. Most other professions are MUCH easier to play straight out of the box.

If anyone wants to perk interest in mesmers AS CODED, then have Anet tweak the enemy AI to a reasonable level. It's not challenge to attempt e-denial on a foe with seemingly endless energy and/or uber energy regen - it is unreasonable and off-putting. It is not challenge to attempt interrupts on foe who have cast times faster than the fastest mesmer 90% (an arbitrary number which seems pretty accurate) of the time, it is unbelievable. There are times when I have tried an interrupt, carefully timed whilst knowing the cast time of the spell in question and watched in utter disbelief as my interrupt failed time and time again!

No, a mesmer is not an easy profession to play. I love it, actually, and find a warrior unchallenging and rather boring. :shrugs: But that's me.

upier · Nov 21, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Surely you're not insinuating only mesmers can do this?

No one is arguing that Mesmers can't be good. The discussion is why they seem to be worse than any other profession in PvE.

No, it's not being worse then all other classes.
It's not being as good as the best ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

I'm sorry but I read the above as 'unless you agree with me and are at my made up stage 3 you're not a good player' which tbh is just wrong and out of touch with reality.

The little list above could be said of any profession of player, not just the mesmer profession. Don't attempt to put your jaded view of the profession as somehow seeing the light and being the ultimate state of truth. It's not, it's a point of view, an opinion with merits and demerits. Just the same as mine or any one else's view here.

There is an alternative to your summary of 3. That of people who are very skilled in all aspects of PvE play, but choose to play their chosen profession because they enjoy it in full knowledge of it's pro's and cons and in some cases because of it.

The thinning of the game as a whole(and therefore of the mesmer profession) has very little to do with PvE effectiveness, it's more to do with people having less to do, not liking the grind or there being other games that offer what they want.

And aye - need to agree with Shan on this one.
Tier 3 of the list Avarre created is simply TOO limiting and thus TOO inaccurate to be taken seriously.

frojack · Nov 21, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Actually no. Avarre's tier 3 can quite easily be simplified as "people who have more experience, and know more about the game than people in tier 1 and 2."

That is all he is really saying. He makes no presuppositions about what classes tier 3 players will actually be playing just a stronger understanding of those in the game. How anyone can actually disagree with something as simple as that is bewildering.
Even the most potentially contentious part of it, where he writes that there are other classes that are more effective is a bit more than true (surprise! I'm an axiom!).

On a side note, why are you even bothering with this anyway Avarre? They obviously want to believe what they want, and have rejected your sound reasoning. Don't waste your time...

Ulterion · Nov 21, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Mesmers can be good in PvE (just depends on the mission/quest/objective at hand). You must always do ur homework prior to doing anything PvE-wise anyway, and wastrel's worry wurx wonderz on Bosses (using halfed hex durations against them); empathy, ineptitude and various other spellz can still own most PvE areas (though not all). Just takes some good foreknowledge to play well. And yes, Heros/Henchies will alwayz pwn us humanz in the whole "timing" aspect of interrupts & such, but nonetheless there are some good players with uber-timing out there. Ya just have to give them the opportunity to prove themselves. I say don't judge a player using mesmer until you have experienced their performance.

upier · Nov 21, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Actually no. Avarre's tier 3 can quite easily be simplified as "people who have more experience, and know more about the game than people in tier 1 and 2."

That is all he is really saying. He makes no presuppositions about what classes tier 3 players will actually be playing just a stronger understanding of those in the game. How anyone can actually disagree with something as simple as that is bewildering.

Actually that is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

New players fall in stage 1. They do not pick up the Mesmer. Older players are in stage 3. They do not keep the Mesmer or play it (unless they have no other PvE characters that are set up, like me). The thinning middle ground is noticeable in Guild Wars, and there are fewer players in stage 2 - resulting in fewer Mesmer players.

He makes just that assumption. And just that is the limiting and inaccurate part.

Res Ipsi · Nov 21, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

He makes just that assumption. And just that is the limiting and inaccurate part.

Agree with Upier. The assumption that experienced players abandon their mesmers because "they know better" is ludicrous. A good number of experienced players enjoy playing the class, and don't share Avarre's opinion about its lack of efficacy in PvE.

upier · Nov 21, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Agree with Upier. The assumption that experienced players abandon their mesmers because "they know better" is ludicrous. A good number of experienced players enjoy playing the class, and don't share Avarre's opinion about its lack of efficacy in PvE.

Oki I KNOW this will sound as if I am trying to pick up a bitch-fight with just EVERYONE BUT

:
I don't see how a player can be considered experienced IF they aren't aware of the mesmer's shortcomings in PvE.
If one doesn't see the issues - then one is STILL at Tier 2.
The question is what do do once the player reaches rock-bottom or Tier 3.
One can either accept the issues and decides that because of it the class isn't worth it - or one can accept the issues and tries to make the best thing out of it.
BUT that doesn't make the issues non-existent. They are still there - and one is aware of them - one just chooses to ignore them because the game can still offer a lot.
The mesmer being sub-par in PvE is a fact (That doesn't mean that there aren't OTHER classes that are also sub-par! It just means there are classes that perform better - and since there is a limited number of slots in a party that plays a role! And the limited party number IS the only reason why this is an issue!). The mesmer operates on a very specific level and that level isn't present in PvE.
BUT what one does with that information - is a choice.
The problem though is that the option of looking past the issues ends up in vain. Just because, we, the players, can not affect the rules how the game is played. The rules are handed down to us - and the rules today say that the mesmer IS sub-par in PvE.
NO matter what one does - it won't change how effective the mesmer is. One might get SERIOUSLY close to making it work - but at the end of the day - one is just close to it.
And not there.

And yes - I am fully aware that these players might as well be thrown into Tier 2. They are going for the same goal. But since our tiers "measure" the experience of a player - they can in no way be in T2. They either need to be in T3 - and thus T3 needs to be expanded OR they need a T4!
Tiers don't change how the mesmer performs - they just measure how good of a player the individual in them is.

Kook~NBK~ · Nov 21, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see how a player can be considered experienced IF they aren't aware of any profession's shortcomings in PvE.

Fixed that for you. And I agree 100%.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 21, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Fixed that for you. And I agree 100%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

There is an alternative to your summary of 3. That of people who are very skilled in all aspects of PvE play, but choose to play their chosen profession because they enjoy it in full knowledge of it's pro's and cons and in some cases because of it.

Which is what I said a few posts ago..

Can we lock this thread and go home please..

Res Ipsi · Nov 21, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see how a player can be considered experienced IF they aren't aware of the mesmer's shortcomings in PvE.
I

All classes have shortcomings. To claim mesmers in general are useless in PvE totally flies in the face of the many mesmers sporting LV and LG titles (to name two). Surely they didn't all stand in the back polishing their nails?

Ensign · Nov 21, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

There is an alternative to your summary of 3. That of people who are very skilled in all aspects of PvE play, but choose to play their chosen profession because they enjoy it in full knowledge of it's pro's and cons and in some cases because of it.

Anyone who spends any amount of time in the PvE build forums would be well aware that people run all sorts of crap for all sorts of reasons. As long as the user can accept the consequences of their choice (playing a harder game, being shunned by pickups and general failure at anything competitive) then there really isn't anything wrong with that.

There are good players who play the weakest professions in PvE, Mesmers and Assassins. I presume they even enjoy to. But they know better than to think that they're doing anything other than playing a weak class for their own reasons.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 22, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Why do I still play mesmer as my main after it's been there done that any and everywhere in PvE(well except farm on Shan) and bar a single thing in PvP(win a tournament in the #1 ranked guild)?

Simply because I enjoy the challenge. I enjoy doing things with my Mes that people say can't be done, enjoy forming teams to do things that to others are hard. To take this 'weak' class to places and situations in PvE in which it is not naturally suited and create builds and playstyles to make it shine.

I enjoy taking a group of friends, teaching, learning and basically creating builds and challenges to face and overcome.

Sure it may be harder work, but the sense of satisfaction one gets from the 'win' in the end is far greater than doing it Ursanway or any other way fotm build. Some of the builds and passive defenses today have their roots in the all mesmer teams. For example, the extensive use of stacking passive defenses which is much lauded now harks back to some of the all mesmer sorrows furnace runs back in 2005. Of course they were'nt called that at the time they were just solutions to a problem.

No other class I have played(and I have played and have fully developed chars for them all) gives me the freedom to just innovate, have fun and challenge me than mesmer. As I mentioned before, when it works and is played right, playing mesmer just flows like water or improvising music. As a gameplay experience to me, it's unbeatable and unmatched by any class..

Is it a technically weak class, for sure(so are they all in certain situations). But the ability, creativity and sheer bloodymindness of the people who enjoy playing it more than make up for it. The real issue is, and here's why you may not see many mesmers these days is fewer people are bloodyminded enough to stick with the stigmas, push through the bias and invoke the creativity and make it work.

the_jos · Nov 22, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I know mesmer and assassin can be considered the weakest professions in PvE due to the specific conditions where they are most effective.

Let's consider a broader picture:
There is a large gap between the optimal situation and daily PvE reality.
Reality is that many PvE players master a limited number of characters.
On less played characters, not all skills are unlocked, most Elites are not capped.
People know the basics about how to play the class, but not exactly when to use what skill. Or what skills work the best together. Not even thinking about skill synergy in the team build...
And people might not be willing to play a certain profession, because they want to achieve a goal (most probably part of a title) on a certain character.
This leads to 'inefficient' teams, because either they are sub-optimal because of the classes people play or because people don't know exactly how to play the profession when they switch to a less played character.
So when the 'competitive' element kicks in, those teams don't really stand a chance in the first place.

Besides in a few specialised guilds, most PvE players don't dedicate hours and hours to perfecting playing a certain area.
They don't have the time, because when they finish it, they have done it for the title and will never get back to it again. Because they have countless other things to do for their titles.
The only areas this will be different are the highly profitable ones, because 'gold' also seems to motivate people to dedicate some time to perfecting things.

It would be very nice if I would be able to role any profession with access to all my unlocked skills, including elites, insta-map to DoA and run numerous team builds for a couple of weeks to perfect completing it.
But that is not PvE reality.
If I would want a Ele in DoA, I have to start one (delete an other fully equipped character for that, let's take my Necro...). Then I need to finish NF. Cap all elites I might want to try. Buy all the skills I might need. Grind all the gold I need for the skills and cap sigs.
Only to find out after a week that a Necro would be better, rinse and repeat.
And leave my main characters unused for that time, not gaining any title progress on them.

Why would we play PvE anymore, since it's hard to play 'optimal' in the first place and when we don't play a 'weak' profession we most probably end up in a 'weak' team anyway....

Redfeather1975 · Nov 22, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

When I first got Guild Wars I saw an article on the main website that mesmers were the least played profession in PvE.
I made a mesmer first and kept that character as my main because I like playing the underdog.
I did that in WoW and EQ2 as well. It's exhilirating.

Full Metal X · Nov 22, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

When I first got Guild Wars I saw an article on the main website that mesmers were the least played profession in PvE.
I made a mesmer first and kept that character as my main because I like playing the underdog.
I did that in WoW and EQ2 as well. It's exhilirating.

Sounds dumb to me tbh.

Just because your different doesn't mean your useful.